On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:25:25 GMT, lawrance@mac.com wrote:

[...]
>What I can't figure out is why particular big brand names have such
>followings. I find that fear and lack of education attribute to the
>"mob mentality" of insisting that it's a superior product.

This is, um, kinda what I was trying to point out, though
somewhat indirectly...

>Take Bose
>speakers for example. Do they really sound twice as good as
>cheap JVC speakers and therefore justify an inflated price? Or is it
>that Bose has a superior marketing strategy by INSISTING that
>every dealer set up their surround speakers in an appropriate
>display?
[...]

Bose is a good example - it has been a bad joke in
audio circles for 30 years (it sells well, despite
its poor performance - due to good sales hype...).
This is kinda what I try to counter...;-)

>David, I appreciate all of your input and information. I wish it didn't
>have such a bias tone because I not sure how much to trust your
>judgement due to your emotion. I'm just looking for some facts that
>I won't find in the brochures from Canon or Sony.

Hmmmm...
I have difficulty understanding the above, since I never
saythings like "XYZ is junk", and "RST" is perfect"...
Read what I say, which is essentially: "NOTHING is perfect,
here are the plusses and minuses I found... Go check these
out for yourself, since they are there for everyone to
observe". Why do you interpret this as biased and
emotional...? Perhaps you are misinterpreting things said
in fun, in exchanges with Cris Hurd...?

>Since you are so
>quick to point your finger and tell people when they are wrong, I
>thought I would point out of few things to you regarding your
>comments on another obvious bias. I'm just trying to educate you
>and a few other lurkers who may share your dismay for the Mac...

Ah-hah! Now I understand...! ;-)
I have offended your brand....;-)

>> Never could figure out why people pay too much for
>> inflexible, un-updatable, slow-for-video systems
>> like the Macs

>First of all, as I stated earlier, you get what you pay for. If you want
>quality components and quality software, you buy a Mac.

Or build your own PC, selecting the very best, and most
compatible parts, at a considerable savings...

>They are
>very upgradeable, (same hard drives and RAM that your PC takes)

Uh - my pet name for most Macs is "future boat-anchors",
since, being very integrated designs (with the advantages
that implies, but also with the rigidity that that implies),
it is hard to rip out a MB, pop in another, and go on to
the next generation of CPUs using the same case and
peripherals. Ever try to add four HDs INSIDE the case
of a G-4 - or an internal CD-writer, film-scanner, AND
DVD-player? Or a bunch of extra cards? To an iMac???
To a Cube??? ;-) Can't, 'cuz when you buy a Mac, you buy
a relatively fixed-function "chunk", not a basis for building
it into whatever you want,at least without lotsa extra
boxes attached - and when it comes time to do a basic
update, out goes the G-3/iMac/Cube to make way for
the next-level whiz-bang, also without basic upgradeability...
(Tell me you can convert a G-3 to a G-4 - maybe I missed
something...;-)

>very flexible, (they share most aftermarket add on components that
>have USB or FireWire. (which Apple invented)) And they may be a
>touch slower for video editing, but they are superior in every day
>productivity compared to any PC running twice the Mhz.

But, an 800MHz CPU for the PC is under $200, with the
1-GHz not much more than $250 - how much is the 800/1-gig
for the Mac...? Or even the dual-450...? ;-)

>Do you use
>your PC for video editing only? I suppose if you did, you wouldn't
>have so much time invested preaching Sony superiority. Yes I edit
>video, but I also surf the net and have about a dozen applications
>open at any given time.

Likewise. I also do web design, fiddle with music on it,
etc.

>> People LIKE plastic goo on
>> the cases and good salesmanship - more than function
>> and flexibility...!

>Do you have a problem with colors other than beige and gray?
>What boring ass colors. Hey, let's start painting every car the same
>color! Their is nothing wrong with giving people a choice and
>moving away from institutional computer design. They must be
>doing something right... sales have hit record highs, and many PC
>platforms are trying to mimick their success. (including Compaq
>and eMachines.)

Yep! Bose "direct-reflecting" all over again...;-)
Color sells. I have no objection to color (though I do
when the colored goo makes the box bigger than it needs
to be, just for the sake of salesmanship...;-).
A computer is a tool, not a stream-lined toaster! ;-)
I think most of the Mac-copycat designs are just plain
ugly - at least Mac made the superfluous plastic goo
kinda pretty...! ;-)

>> Talk 'bout religion! ;-) Brand-loyalty is often
>> not "dentable" by such things as logic and
>> practicality - the choice is often based more on
>> emotional appeal than reason...;-)

See above, for more evidence of this...;-)., ;-), ;-)

>Noo... the decision is to run an efficient operating system and
>remain productive throughout the day. The superior colors and
>design happen to be what you get as a bonus.

Yep! ;-)

>> green-and-white plastic case-goo and neat tiny
>> cubes (never mind that a raft of peripherals must
>> then be attached, 'cuz the case is too small...;-)

>Are you really so blind to see that this is ONE line that Apple offers,
>and they offer it for companies who DEMAND image to be part of
>their surrounding? The cube is made and marketed to executives,
>CEO's and advertising agencies who choose (or need) to have
>impressive elaborate surroundings. If you would ever look to see
>how much the cube DOES for the amount of space it takes up, you
>might actually appreciate it. Aren't you wondering why it won so
>many design awards last year?

No - I consider a computer a tool, not an aesthetic
object... How "neat" is the cube (quite neat, in its own
right) when multitudes of modules are wired to it to make
it useful...? ;-) Heck, a car consisting of a chromed
engine and a pair of nice bucket seats might make a
nifty design "statement", but when you need to bolt a set
of wheels, some steering gear, and a few other things
to it to make it useable for anything but sitting in,
where is the "design statement" then...? Kinda silly,
really...

>> computers with lotsa open bays and slots, easily
>> upgraded CPUs, actual handy floppy drives that
>> come WITH the computer and are accessible from
>> the front, not the back, "real" CD drawers instead
>> of slots), etc...;-)

>If you want a Mac that has 5 expansion slots, Bays for additional
>ATA 100 and/or SCSI drives, an easily upgradeable CPU, an AGP
>graphics card, up to 1.5 GB of RAM, a built in CD-RW/DVD
>authoring drive, built in FireWire and USB, built in 10/100/1000
>network card, and a case that opens in 3 seconds... then you buy a
>G4 tower.

Ah. Funny, all that fits in a mid-tower PC case, around
$50, including 300-watt power supply...

>As for floppies... who the hell uses those things still? How much
>video can you put on one of those?! Mac boldly ditched that
>outdated technology two years ago and replaced it with the 100 MB
>Zip drive. (Which can read both Mac and PC format.)

I've seen a LOT of Macs without Zip drives (and without
any means of removing and transporting data short of sending it
in email...). The floppy is dirt-cheap, universal (outside
the Mac world), and still the primary means of storing and
transporting small date files. Dropping it was silly (but
mebbe its presence made executing cute "plastic-goo" designs
harder? ;-)

>Besides, Mac OWNS the printing, graphic design and advertising
>markets. Some of the high-end programs we run are
>QuarkXpress, Adobe Illustrator, Pagemaker and especially
>Photoshop which all run faster on Macs. We pay more because we
>expect more. Consequently, we get more.

Mac is the standard in publishing - and for consistency,
remains so, but not 'cuz it is better... BTW, I've had
Mac people come to me for color-corrections, since on their
low-contrast/saturation Mac displays, they couldn't see
subtle color differences... After looking at their displays
(more recent ones appear to be better), I wondered how they
could do anything but B&W graphics...!;-) Which reminds me
(a subjective thing, but...;-) - don't you Mac folks get
tired of those crude old screen graphics that are B&W line
drawings? I prefer nice, colored, 3-D screen graphics
myself...;-)

>Don't take that Mhz stuff too seriously. I think Pentium took notes
>from Bose. Their is much more to a Mac than meets the average
>consumer eye.

Still lookin'...;-)

>Taken from Apples web site:
>"The Power Mac G4 is a phenomenally powerful computer. This
>power is especially evident when it performs processor-intensive
>tasks in creative and scientific applications. In fact, at speeds of
>5.5 gigaflops, the new 733MHz PowerPC G4 processor with
>Velocity Engine is up to 57% faster than a 1.5 GHz Pentium 4."

We HAVE been talking about ad hype vs. reality, now haven't
we...??? ;-), ;-), ;-)

>> But, I rant......;-)

>Yes you do.

Yes, I was - but tongue-in-cheek...! ;-) (Or, perhaps
I should have been using these, instead: ;^)
Buried in the comments above is some truth - but most
of the above is meant as chiding, so don't get too
bent out of shape over it! Even though I'm making
some fun of what you are saying, since on the one hand
you are agreeing that some things are sold though hype
and brand-loyalty, not value-for-money, and on the other
hand you are also displaying some symptoms of
"Mac-religion", all of this basically is in fun - the world
will comntinue to spin regardless of whether Mac is better
than PC, Canon is better than Sony, Apogee is better than
Bose, you are right and I am wrong - it is best to keep
all this in perspective. But it is also useful to learn
to split ad-hype from observation, and not to blame the
observer if the observations are counter to ones
beliefs...;-) Criss Hurd and I were having a fun exchange
within which it was possible to air differences of opinion.
Everything said may have been relevant, but not meant
necessarily strictly literally. It is good to see the
difference... When I state an observation, I mean what
I say, and that should be obvious; when I state an opinion,
that should also be obvious; when I'm making a joke - well,
maybe that is less obvious...;-)

>Last thought: David, if your computer starts freezing up and you
>need to call tech support, who do you call? Microsoft or the
>hardware manufacturer? How many minutes or hours will you
>invest before someone figures out a solution? I know if I ever had
>a problem, I only need to know one 800 number.

No problem - I call out, in a loud voice, "BOB, IT DOESN'T
WORK...!", and he comes immediately...;-) But, seriously,
one advantage of builting PCs is that you have some idea
of what the "guts" are in a computer (and how incredibly
cheap and easily-replaced all of the parts are...), instead
of seeing the computer as an esoteric, unknowable,
pretty-plastic-covered, design-award-winning "object"...;-)

>A loyal Mac fan,

Obviously...;-)
But, again, take the above (mostly) as friendly chiding for
accusing me of what you may be guilty of...;-)
Macs are fine, as are Canon camcorders (though I may find
them less-good values than PCs and Sony 3-chippers for
most purposes...;-).
[Disclaimer: the last statement was an opinion! ;-]