On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:22:19 -0400, "Damian
Bradley" <dbradley@kingston.net> wrote:
>was "Monitoring speakers and subwoofer (bass on a
budget)"
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>I just thought I would re-kindle a discussion I started
a few weeks
>(months?) ago entitled "Monitoring speakers and
subwoofer (bass on a
>budget)" If
you want to read the thread, just do a search google groups for
>that subject.
>
>Firstly, below is a link to a great article on the
logistics of near-field
>monitors. It's
pretty long, but there's lots of great information there.
>
>http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_good_references/index.htm
>
>I've done some more research on the topic of
near-fields, and listened to a
>lot of different speakers and a set of monitors. It appears that there are
>two dominant perspectives when it comes to near-field
setups: 1) Use
>monitors that sound good with other people's material,
and mix so that yours
>sounds as good as theirs. 2) Use monitors that
don't flatter your mix, and
>work until your mix sounds good on these, and hence will
sound good on most
>everything else.
I favor a variation of 2): use a dead-flat, colorless
speaker, PROPERLY PLACED to maintain those attributes
(I know these do not exist, but some are closer than
others, and good speaker placement and listening
position can take *forever* to achieve...;-), and
check results (at least at first) on a range of good
AND poor systems...
>With this in mind, I continue to wade through the
potential purchase options
>for audio-for-video mixing applications. For my price point, $900 cdn or
>~$600 usd, there are about three options that I can see:
>
>1) Buy a set of passive bookshelf HiFi speakers to use
with a vintage amp
>(no DSP's and whatnot)
These are generally not "near-field" systems, and
can
sound FAR from flat and smooth listened to close-up
(there are exceptions...).
>2) Buy a pair of 8" active monitors (M-audio BX8).
A good solution - active near-field monitors tend to
be designed to be smooth and flat for a specific
placement and listening distance...
>3) Buy a pair of 5" active monitors (M-audio BX5)
and suppliment this with a
>second 'entertainment' / subwoofer system such as
Klipsch Promedia 2.1
This WILL result in poor bass...
>4) Buy a kit
such as the Videologic Sirocco Pro
Dunno what it is...;-)
>1) Let me say right off that bat that I am seriously
considering dropping
>option 1) altogether.
The article linked above is quite concvincing in
>that regard. I
won't go into details, as it was also discussed in my
>previous thread.
There are a few speakers that can work well enough for
this, though they may not be ideal...
>2) This option
is pretty simple. Although I did demo
these monitors, they
>sounded very harsh compared to some HiFi speakers, and
lacked suprisingly in
>bass for an 8" woofer. I will be testing them in my home soon, as I have a
>feeling that either the room or the way he had done his
speaker setup (was
>routed through the SP-8s subwoofer which was supposedly
turned off) was
>causing some serious acoustic problems. Anyway, the specs say 37-20k range
>for these bad boys.
Anyone have any experience with these monitors? I've
>read mixed (hah) reviews of these and their older SP-8b
cousins.
You would need to audition them with the placement
of them and you (and nearby reflecting surfaces) like
what you will use. It used to amuse me that most people
audition home speakers *while standing* with them placed
on or near the floor (or in a "bank" of
alternative speakers
on a wall) - forgetting that speaker sound changes with
rotation in BOTH directions, and the changes are most
noticeable with rotation on a horizontal axis (vertical
tilt). Also, your distance from the speaker and from a wall
or other reflector, and the distance of the speaker from
the wall and other near reflectors *will* influence the
sound considerably. It is easy to make a good speaker sound
bad with poor placement of it and the listener - and it is
possible to improve the sound of a poor speaker with good
placement...
>Incidentally, these things are WAY louder than is
necessary...or safe for
>that matter, especially if you're three feet away.
Turn them down...;-)
>3) This option was one I thought rather clever. For the same price as the
>BX8's, one could have two systems on which to test one's
mixes. Everyone
>agrees that the more places you test your mix, the
better. So the idea here
>is that the BX5's with their limited low-end would serve
as the main mixing
>speakers. If
there is less bass on the monitors, there will be more in the
>mix right?. This
could be verified by a quick run on the Klipsch system
>(30-20kHz), to simulate a home-theatre type setup. Measure twice, cut once.
>Again, mixed reviews on these speakers and the SP-5b
cousins. A seperate
>article on the site above (
>http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_little_wonders/index.htm
) pretty much states
>outright that main mixing on 5" speakers lacks
sufficient bass for use as
>main-monitors.
Depends on the speaker. There is no reason why a 5"
cannot be flat to 40 cycles or so (though there are
many good reasons why they generally are not...!;-).
I have designed and built subwoofer systems (BIG
ones - you may have fun looking at this:
www.David-Ruether-Photography.com/Audio.html), and it is difficult
under good conditions to blend seemlessly a subwoofer
and main speakers (but it can be done! ;-) - but with
the little woofers, the responses aren't wide enough to
do much more than introduce a bass bump in the
overall response (kinda like what commercial 6-channel
systems for video do, so......;-).
>4) I don't know
much about this kit, and probably can't buy it locally, but
>I thought it worth mentioning for argument's sake. Maybe someone can
>comment.
Not me...;-)
>So here's a summary of some of the advice I have
received so far:
>- Don't mix exclusively with headphones
DEFINITELY!!!!!
>- Don't mix exclusively with a sub-woofer
Likely...
>- Don't mix exclusively with computer speakers
In a pinch, with checking on better systems, using decent
computer speakers, this can be OK...
>- Don't mix exclusively with HiFi speakers (and the amp
that further colours
>them)
The "amp coloring" is minimal, except on the very
worst systems - with good ones, the coloration is
well below the level of other variables...
>- Don't mix exclusively FOR $10,000 monitor setups
Heck, why not...? ;-) Just check results on cheap
systems...
>So where does this leave us? All signs point toward an active monitor
>system of some specification or another (preferably
6"+), and to try mixes
>on as many sources as possible. I think that both options 2 and 3 above are
>interesting ways to get a sample of the
true...no...relative sound of a mix.
>Yes? No?
Option 1 or 2, but you may need to search more...
>Please leave your comments, and feel free to give more
advice if you have
>any. I post my
observations in the hopes that it is helpful to others in
>addition to myself.
No monitor is perfect (or representative of all ways
the audio material will be used), but some are very
good - and some FAR less than perfect solutions can
be used if you learn their foibles and compensate
(some good [and bad...;-] recordings were mixed in
the 50's and 60's using Altec THEATER speakers and
some REALLY OBNOXIOUS JBL "monitors"...;-) Check
your work often enough that you don't get too far
"off track" in what you are doing...