On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:29:53 -0400, "Tom" <orgone1@buckeye-express.com> wrote:


>I've been a lurker on this group for years...and I've finally got an issue

>that I think should be discussed.


>Here's the problem:


>I'm an non-pro videographer..someone who loves to make videos for myself and

>friends. Personal stuff...vacations..events and so forth. I started with a

>RCA pro-8...went to a Sony Hi-8....to a Canon Ultura (great 1

>chipper...optical stabilization for $600 bucks)...a Sony trv-20 ( another

>nice machine)...and finally a vx2000.


>Now...my TV for viewing these gems was a 10 year old 32inch Sony. I decided

>to look into a new TV. Of course...I thought...lets go HDTV....perhaps even

>Plasma (EDTV or an HDTV version).


>SO I take my masterpieces and a camera to various local video stores.


>ARGHHH!! My goodness...have you guys seen what DV...even high quality DV

>looks like on a digital set? Yikes...all kinds of converter nasties. I tried

>every HDTV I could get my hands on...high end...calibrated front

>projectors...rear projectors....plasma (true HD versions).....they ALL make

>my pristine DV stuff look horrid. Sure 720p or 1080i looks great on these

>machines...but my 1000+ hours of legacy material is unviewable on these



>So I tried out some 36" flat screen SDTV's (Sony and Tohsiba)...ah...they

>look beautiful.


>SO...I bought a 36" flat screen Toshiba and a 24" flat screen Toshiba. My DV

>and legacy SVHS look 100% better than on my old set.


>Oh yes...I'm gonna pick up a HDTV soon...but my DV material will never

>darken the screen of one of these babies.


>My question is this: Should'nt we...who love videography...and who have

>significant Standard Definition stockpiles...be concerned about the slowly

>vanishing...high quality SDTV? I predict in 5 years...the only SDTV's you'll

>see will be smaller screen sizes. Digital versions clearly predominate in

>36"+ right now (at least at major retailers).


>I should be good for another decade...but geez...I'v spent 20 years shooting

>SD in a variety of formats...only to have the quality reduced by a factor of

>10 on an HDTV.


>I can forsee a market for quality SDTV's...sold by speciality houses....for

>people like me with years old SD material.


>480i just looks like trash on a digital set...at least when compared to a

>high quality SD set.


>Any comments? I believe I read someones comments a while back relating to

>how bad their DV tapes look on a HDTV.




Thanks for this interesting post - I was the

one you mentioned above who saw a friend's MOST

impressive HDTV front projection system (that looked

nothing short of truly amazing on HDTV material, and

MUCH better than anything I had seen in stores),

with very good display of wide-screen DVDs, soft

but acceptable display of SD broadcast material,

and HORRIBLE display of my SD-D25 Mini-DV material

(with "S"-cable direct-connection into the front

projector). What was amazing to me was that the

above was true, yet ALL of the better-looking

material had lower data-rates, and all but the

HDTV had lower resolution. I also have seen my

Mini-DV material displayed large on SD gear with

it looking good (and I'm well aware of the range

of "nasties" D25 is capable of showing - see:


I was willing to call this a conversion problem

with this particular projector (or with

resolution-halving projectors in general...),

but your post (and John Dyson's, above) made me

wonder again about this issue...


More on this?



I can clearly state (demonstrating with my own video equipment), that DV50

type formats (50mbps versions of DV) look alot better on HDTV than DV25.  It

is possible to partially clean-up the DV25 picture, but the damage done by

the compression scheme is impossible to totally remove.


Even with OTA NTSC, if you look carefully, and have a fairly clean signal,

you can see the DV25 artifacts pass through.  BetaSP tends to have a soft

look also, but it is much easier to see the effects of BetaSP on SDTV



DV25 is still a really nice format for home use.


John Dyson